If you have any concern for new believers read this.

[iliganchurch]

To whom it may concern;

We were ask to go to Peru and given the names and address of the people we met with, with the desire of building churches there because NO ONE was doing anything toward that end.

The people there ALL begged us. "Will you stat a church here?" and told us "the Mennonites and those working here have been coming for years and each have a different agenda and say that they are not going to, will you?" So we began trying to gather the people together and began teaching them, some began covering, one became committed to becoming an evangelist and another has come to the understanding of the cross and began walking in it. All things that any CHRISTIAN should become excited about. And how was this met with among the religious vipers of this day?

Accusations of division, and false teaching, envy and strife each group that has had any contact with these people and some coming from central America who have no presence there, doing all they can to turn these little ones away, LUKE 17:1-2. It's no wonder few from the outside ever stay with you for any length of time without going to sleep and dying. SHAME, SHAME, SHAME, on you vial hypocrites!

We renounce your whole organization and if any one among you has any light at all, come out from among them and be ye separate saith the Lord. By the way this is not bitterness this is controlled ANGER directed at wicked religion. IN CHRIST NAME REPENT.

David Keeling and the churches of Monett, Mexico Philippines and the evangelist working in Peru.

[Dan Z]

To whom it may concern;

We were ask to go to Peru and given the names and address of the people we met with, with the desire of building churches there because NO ONE was doing anything toward that end.

The people there ALL begged us. "Will you stat a church here?" and told us "the Mennonites and those working here have been coming for years and each have a different agenda and say that they are not going to, will you?" So we began trying to gather the people together and began teaching them, some began covering, one became committed to becoming an evangelist and another has come to the understanding of the cross and began walking in it. All things that any CHRISTIAN should become excited about. And how was this met with among the religious vipers of this day?

Accusations of division, and false teaching, envy and strife each group that has had any contact with these people and some coming from central America who have no presence there, doing all they can to turn these little ones away, LUKE 17:1-2. It's no wonder few from the outside ever stay with you for any length of time without going to sleep and dying. SHAME, SHAME, SHAME, on you vial hypocrites!

We renounce your whole organization and if any one among you has any light at all, come out from among them and be ye separate saith the Lord. By the way this is not bitterness this is controlled ANGER directed at wicked religion. IN CHRIST NAME REPENT.

David Keeling and the churches of Monett, Mexico Philippines and the evangelist working in Peru.

Mr. Keeling,

Having never been in Peru, Mexico, or the Phillipines and not having any personal knowledge of the situation of which you speak, I am sorry but I cannot accept your rebuke, nor does your call to repent ressonate with me (I do find plenty to repent of from time to time however ).

You certainly do sound frustrated though. I honestly hope the truth of Christ can go forth with your work, and that your apparent bitterness does not spill over to those to whom you minister. In that sense then, I hope your tyrade has been cathartic for you.

[Hopenafuture]

We renounce your whole organization and if any one among you has any light at all, come out from among them and be ye separate saith the Lord. By the way this is not bitterness this is controlled ANGER directed at wicked religion. IN CHRIST NAME REPENT.

Perhaps it would be good to be clear about what you are truly calling "us" to do. I am also wondering what the purpose for posting this is. You are asking anyone who is truly concerned about new believers to leave the organization of what? the Mennonite church? - or did I misunderstand? And this on the basis of the actions that some specific people or an organization have done?

Twill be interesting to see if there is any response to the legitimate questions asked - what organization are you referring to? What action are you calling us TO as you challenge "anyone who has any light at all" to separate from "them"?

[Truthseeker]

Twill be interesting to see if there is any response to the legitimate questions asked - what organization are you referring to? What action are you calling us TO as you challenge "anyone who has any light at all" to separate from "them"?

Indeed Hope, a return on the part of Mr. Keeling is probably very doubious; apparently we have been weighed and found wanting.

I noticed that this same post is in Introductions as well. Anabaptistenigma posted a very apt response I thought:

We love you too.

BTW, if there is no return of Mr. Keeling, the post in Introductions may be removed since it is out of place and this one is the same.

[Stoltz13]

I've transfered these questions from the duplicate thread in the introductions forum, because I think they are legitimate questions:

Dare I ask? Hmmmm, Well, Ok. Here are some questions:
1). Is this post an original or is it quoted?
2). What organization is being renounced?
a.)Some Mennonites would act very much the way you described, but the ones I am familiar with would wholewheartedly support evangelical efforts, if indeed they are as you described.
I will be away for a while so do not expect a reply immediatly.

[baptistbrother]

To whom it may concern;

We were ask to go to Peru and given the names and address of the people we met with, with the desire of building churches there because NO ONE was doing anything toward that end.

The people there ALL begged us. "Will you stat a church here?" and told us "the Mennonites and those working here have been coming for years and each have a different agenda and say that they are not going to, will you?" So we began trying to gather the people together and began teaching them, some began covering, one became committed to becoming an evangelist and another has come to the understanding of the cross and began walking in it. All things that any CHRISTIAN should become excited about. And how was this met with among the religious vipers of this day?

Accusations of division, and false teaching, envy and strife each group that has had any contact with these people and some coming from central America who have no presence there, doing all they can to turn these little ones away, LUKE 17:1-2. It's no wonder few from the outside ever stay with you for any length of time without going to sleep and dying. SHAME, SHAME, SHAME, on you vial hypocrites!

We renounce your whole organization and if any one among you has any light at all, come out from among them and be ye separate saith the Lord. By the way this is not bitterness this is controlled ANGER directed at wicked religion. IN CHRIST NAME REPENT.

David Keeling and the churches of Monett, Mexico Philippines and the evangelist working in Peru.

What "organization" are you refering to? I never signed up for anything... lol

[iliganchurch]

We posted this letter in the wake of situation in Peru which involved a certain "conservative" Mennonite group turning away certain "little ones" interested in learning The Gospel

This letter is not a backlash of bitterness as if we have been personally hurt by the Mennonite denominations. If we were to be bitter towards the Mennonite Churches than we would be guilty of not going our way and reconciling first, and then offering our gift of the Gospel.

Our concerns are not tainted with an "anti Mennonite" spirit. The term anti Mennonite spirit has become a cliché term used to ignore anyone who voices a concern toward you're Church(es). We very deeply respect Anabaptism in it's grass-roots. Sadly what we have found in Anabaptism is nothing more than a skeletal frame of what it used to be, dead and without life. A never moving frame grounded in tradition and held up by suspenders.

You ought to remember what Jesus said: "think not to say that you have Abraham as you're father because God is able to raise up children of Abraham from the rocks". You (Mennonites) ought not think to yourselves that you have Yoder as your father.

You ought to remember that Anabaptism is the result of the Waldenese taking up arms and apostatizing from The Faith. You ought to consider that the Church is not static. You ought to consider that that God has and will raise up another Church willing to follow Christ if the former falls away.

You ought to remember what the Lord said in Romans, that those who are Jews are not Jews according to the flesh, but rather according to the spirit. You ought consider that you are not Anabaptists according to suspenders or heritage, but according to zeal for the truth and zeal for the Gospel.

You ought to consider that Christ rebuked the accepted hyper religious structure of His day. You ought to consider that the True Church is a small unaccepted and rejected little flock of Israelites as Anaken told her child in the Martyrs Mirror.

You ought to consider Grebel and Blaurock who were willing to storm the pulpits of the Catholic Churches in order to condemn them. You ought to consider that these men condemned the hyper religous structure of their time by coming out from among the enemies of the Gospel and being separate.

You ought to consider that Blaurock and Grebel were not content with conventional life, they were willing to lose their lives for The Truth. These men were not content to build pole-barns and eat shoe fly pie in a tucked away little farm house with a F-350 parked outside.

You ought consider that Grebel was in poverty and debt, his relationship with his wife was less than ideal, his health was poor, and yet he chose to venture all around the German countryside preaching The Truth which resulted in death from poor health.

You ought to remember that Grebel and Blaurock did not try to reform the broken religion of their day by attempting to reform. Rather they chose a Cross, an option that most people will never consider. They chose to go outside the camp and suffer reproach and rejection by teaching The Truth when no one else was willing to.

You ought to consider it when someone tells you that you're organization is guilty of turning little ones away from the truth. You ought to consider that when we begin to turn people away from the truth we are Christ’s enemies and not His servants.

You ought to consider what Jesus said: "If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth".

I fear that you are so blind you cannot even discern what Jesus meant in this scripture.

[appleman2006]

I am really confused. Your reference to Matt. 18 is interesting So is this your way of doing the third step and going to the broader church after you have done the first two? Quite frankly I feel somewhat helpless to adress your concerns as I know nothing of the organization you refer to in Peru.

If your message is that we all are less then perfect well then you get no argument from me. I am just a fellow traveller trying to follow Christ in the best way that I can.

BTW as a part time student of history myself I find your reference to the conection between early Anabaptists and Waldensens interesting. I realize many in the past have tried to make the connection but not very successfully. Anyway my prayer for you is that you find a church group that you can feel at home with, that you can trust and that can help you in your walk with God.

[Truthseeker]

I am requesting that no further comments be posted by the members of MD until the individual responsible for the OP produce some detailed information as to their understanding of the errors they have charged against Mennonites in Peru and some identification as to what group of Mennonites they are referring.

If you have any questions before proceeding, Private Message me directly and we will discuss your questions.

[Mike Atnip]

I will ignore briefly the request to not post so I can "come to the rescue" of my brother Jonathon.
In an email to him, I explained that the people that generally use this board are distinct from the ones that caused the pain in Peru, even though both groups are "Mennonite".
I explained to him that unless the people on this discussion board are made aware of what happened, he will probably get automatic rejection, even though many would agree with his point of view on the events that transpired in Peru, were they informed in detail.
The original post was not written to this board specifically, and the author himself did not post it.
What my dear brother Jonathon is, is a realtively new convert "from off the streets" without any Menno background, a veritable "Anabaptist" who is dismayed at the stagnancy found within the confines of those who use the name "Mennonite".
To all ye stagnant descendents of the Anabaptists, welcome to George Blaurock version 2007!
For whatever rough edges you may see, I trust you can see a man, saved from the street life and all its unmentionable gore, zealous for truth and God himself.

[Truthseeker]

I will ignore briefly the request to not post so I can "come to the rescue" of my brother Jonathon.

In an email to him, I explained that the people that generally use this board are distinct from the ones that caused the pain in Peru, even though both groups are "Mennonite".

I explained to him that unless the people on this discussion board are made aware of what happened, he will probably get automatic rejection, even though many would agree with his point of view on the events that transpired in Peru, were they informed in detail.

The original post was not written to this board specifically, and the author himself did not post it.

What my dear brother Jonathon is, is a realtively new convert "from off the streets" without any Menno background, a veritable "Anabaptist" who is dismayed at the stagnancy found within the confines of those who use the name "Mennonite".

To all ye stagnant descendents of the Anabaptists, welcome to George Blaurock version 2007!

For whatever rough edges you may see, I trust you can see a man, saved from the street life and all its unmentionable gore, zealous for truth and God himself.

Thank you Mike for your help; btw, long time no see too, miss your input.

Any further information you can give is appreciated. There may be some on MD that can try to help with the problem, I don't truly know, but it is possible.

My prayers go out to this hurting brother in Christ. May he find the answers with God's grace helping him, to remedy the situation he sees in Peru.

[Truthseeker]

I am excusing Mike Atnip for his violation of my posting above, but let's keep the ban on for the time being and let Mike help settle this situation with his friend.

If Mike or anyone else desires to add information on this situation, please PM me with what you have.

Edited to thank those that have responded to my requests to have their recent comments deleted. Apparently there is much more to the story than the OP originally indicated or was explained in today's posting.

[iliganchurch]

"One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said...

Poll: Does the Mennonite church reach out enough?
I'm gonna put a poll on this, but give your comments! Do we often become to much of a "tight knit" group and not reach out to our neighbors and those we come in contact with? Sure we go on mission trips and we send missionaries, but how about in our own communities?
- Raun

That is one thing that majorly bugs me about our churches. We hear these great messages about reaching out and being witnesses to those around us, but do we do anything?????? Nope. We sit there and talk about what we could do. No that's not always true- many churches have great ministries like kid's clubs and summer bible school- but I really think we could do a whole lot more!!
-happygolucky

I couldn't agree more!!! We spend so much time quarreling and preaching at each other and no time working on saving those around us. I heard once that the only way a church will grow (as proven by history) is to be on fire and reach out, or to be persecuted...
- Raun

Mennonites and Amish have had isolationist and separatist ideas for years and years, why should we be surprised at the fruit?
-peacefulady

Have you heard Chester Weaver's message at the Minister's Meetings on anabaptists? Currently, the Ab/menn are thought of as nice people who work hard, make good food, and nice quilts. The early anabaptists were thought of as people who disturbed the peace because of their radical beliefs. How do we get that back?
-happygolucky

I don't think that the Conservative Mennonite church as a whole does enough of this. We just talked about this last Sunday in Sunday School. Why don't we do enough of this?

...Well, would you want to join a group that fights amongst itself all the time...
-HooverRated

I suspect that we fight each other because we don't have the message.
-Raun

When the majority of churches get started out of splits...when the church's patterns of growth correlate with our birth rates, we are in the maintenance mode instead of focusing on reaching out.
-JLapp

I do agree with jlapp that we as a people have lost vision. Sure, we do a lot of good, I'm not against any of it, I'm just saying that we seem to be too content with living undisturbed lives and not willing to break out of our comfort zones to show Christ's love if it means an economic sacrifice. Sadly, I put myself at the top of the list for this shortcoming.
-ewknice

I had the opportunity, no, the privilege to work with a non-mennonite christian in a incarcerated(both of us) environment for about two months. One day, this after many days of discussions involving our faith and lifestyles, he looked at me with genuine tears in his eyes and asked, why couldn't I have been influenced by your people years ago already? His impression of menno's had been that we are closed to the outside, unattainable.
-vegehtz

I think we give the impression to lots of people that we're closed to non-mennonites. We hear folks ask sometimes if you can be a mennonite if you're not born a mennonite and we're like, "Of course." But to tel you the truth, I can easily see why they get that impression. I mean, how many times in a year do we have non-mennonites into our homes? For one, I don't have them very often, specially not for meals. I go visit sick people in my community, call them onthe phone and of course, witness every now and then, but to really lay down my life, befriend them on a day to day basis, and especially invite them to church, I'm not doing that. And I feel like I need to. Jesus gave so much of His time, His resources and everything He had for us. Then why am i not laying down my life in the same way?
-mississippigurl

...This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth".

It seems ironic that this forum is dedicated to Mennonites for the purpose of arguing The Faith rather than helping those outside to understand the The Faith.

In regard to what we have stated previously we want to make it known that we are not bitter, we are angry. We are not personally hurt, we are trying to make it known that your organizations are guilty of turning little ones away from the faith.

I personally attest to this. Four years ago I was converted through the efforts of an Evangelist named David Keeling. Previously to our meeting David had been a member of The Fellowshippers in Fairview Missori. While David was with this congregation David would go street preaching on Friday and Saturday nights on a particular intersection in Springfield Missouri, this location is known for it's bar scene. Often David would preach until late in the evening to the bar crowd, it is known that these crowds do not frequent this area until 9 or 10 pm and it isn’t uncommon to see people into the late hours of the night.

While David was with this group he and several other brothers preached at this particular venue using signboards, preaching to the professing "christian" college students out getting drunk. The Mennonite church sharply disagreed with this form of evangelism. The church voiced its concern by imposing a 10 o’clock curfew on David and the other Brothers. As stated before this venue is not active until 9 pm, David explained this to the ministry, they wouldn’t budge. In effect they attempted to bring an end to the street preaching.

This venue was 1 hour away from David’s home. The curfew would effectively require David to leave the venue a 9pm to be home by 10pm. This would not allow any time to talk to anyone. David did not comply with the ministries curfew (I owe m soul to this decision).
Eventually the ministry moved to excom David, not everyone in the church agreed with this action to excom this man of God. Never the less the ministry moved to excom David because he was unwilling to "submit" to them.

There were 3 other men that I am aware who did not cast a vote in the excoming. All of them were put on proving, 2 of them were later excomd and 1 was forced to change fellowships. After the excoming David continued to street preach choosing rather to obey God rather than men, it was because of this decision that I am talking to ou now.

It was 4 years ago that I was getting ready to go to a party with my friends, I had just visited the bar where my girlfriend worked when I walked out ont he street and saw a man holding a sign that read "The Party Ends in Hell!" if my memory serves me right.

This man I met was David Keeling, wespoke and he shared things with me from the Word of God that I had never heard before in the evangelical denominations. He shared what the Kingdom of God was, what it meant to follow Jesus and bear The Cross, and what it meant to find you’re life and lose it and how we are to lose our life to find it. Praise the Lord I never heard anything like that before! I asked David if he had a church, he responded "yes, there are just a few of us however". It was a Saturday night in July.

My girlfriend and I attended the next morning where we saw coverings and very modest dresses, men who were full of the Word of God and ready to share it Word with us. My girlfriend and I continued to attend, she quit her job at the bar, took her lip ring, tongue ring, nose ring and ear rings out, put a dress and a covering on.

At that time I was working in a bar as a “roadieâ€Â

[Truthseeker]

The ban on posts is still on for the present, please allow the mod staff time to work with this situation. If you have some thoughts on this you want to share with us please PM a mod. Thanks for your patience.


Addenum, the staff has decided to open this thread to selected members initially. Jonathan's post needs to be considered fairly and honestly. We have asked several regular members to help get this discussion going.

Presently they are:

Dan Z
Mike Atnip

Others may be included later.

The comments of the OP are serious and is therefore not a normal thread for MD in the opinion of the mod staff and seconded by comments from other MD members. It is also being kept public due to the fact that the challenge was public.

Along with regular mod duties, unauthorized posts will be copied and removed by the mods, and PMed back to the post's author, otherwise the mods will forgo contributing to the discussion.

We are well aware that some may disagree with this method, but we are asking for our decision to be honored on this thread.

The floor is open to Dan Z and Mike Atnip at this time.

[Dan Z]

Thanks TS for opening up the discussion with our brother. I trust that it will be a profitable on, one form which we all can grow...for the glory of God.

Greetings in Jesus' name Jonathan...

Thanks for the follow-up post on the evangelism thread. Your testimony is inspiring. Knowing a bit of your story is helpful to me, so that I can understand who you are, what you are speaking about, and what is behind the depth of your spiritual concern here. By the way, I also visited your web site and blog, and got a glimpse of your ministry in the Philippines. God bless you as your serve the cause of His Kingdom!

Your follow-up post is important because I think you will find people on this discussion board are more open to your concerns and even your rebuke (in fact, likely agreeing with much of your perspective) when you communicate as a concerned brother with a sincere heart and a story to tell rather than what seems like an invading preacher spewing condemnation with no point of relationship to any of us.

Anyway, I am glad you have come back to this board to follow up, and I accept your brotherly challenge to live out a faith of action rather than one of dead legalism. I don't yet know the details related to those who were "tuning little ones away" in the Philippines, aside from that they were conservative Mennonites, and it sounds like your feeling was that they were sewing discord and legalism rather than a vibrant faith. If that is the case, you will find in this community much to affirm a radically alive faith perspective over and against Phariseism. I also know that sometimes perceptions are not all they are cracked up to be.

In any case, I look forward to further dialog with you.